Over at the Mac Gafraidh blog, I questioned Chelsea on whether she took the following verses literally:
“And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein [there is] life, [I have given] every green herb for meat: and it was so.” (Genesis 1:29-30).
Like all biblical literalists, she said that she does believe this. These verses basically says that all animals were created to be vegetarian - an absurd position to hold. We need only think about carnivores and their killing adaptations like the canines of big cats that that are so good a piercing flesh – and just happen to be at the right spacing to dislocate the cervical (neck) vertebrae of their main prey species. Then there are species of fish specifically adapted to eat scales and fins (eg Perissodus sp and Exodon paradoxus). One species, the Sabre tooth blenny (Aspidontus taeniatus) even mimics that Cleaner wrasse (Labroides dimidiatus). Cleaner wrasse pick parasites, which are themselves highly specialised non vegetarians (see my article on Trypanosomes for an complex example of adaptation to living inside and off of another species). Fish approach cleaner wrasse to be serviced and the wrasse signals back. This signifies the intentions of both parties and wrasse are even allowed into the mouths of large predators, where they are unharmed. Sabre tooth blennies on the other hand do a similar display but instead of cleaning the other fish, they take a chunk out of it. This is a problem for YECs.
However, I want to use an example that Darwin used (more against the idea that god was a loving creator). He cites the Ichneumonoidea – a group of parasitoid wasps that lay their eggs in the living bodies of their insect hosts (usually caterpillars).
Darwin writes:
“I own that I cannot see as plainly as others do, and as I should wish to do, evidence of design and beneficence on all sides of us. There seems to me too much misery in the world. I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice.”
There are several special adaptations that are needed:
A suitable host must be located.
The host must become infected – hence the long ovipositor. Some species (eg Ephialtes manifestator) can locate their host through wood and drill to them . Other species also paralyse their hosts, so the toxin is yet another adaptation. Many species also parasitize dangerous spiders so avoiding becoming dinner is another adaptation.
The larvae must evade the hosts’ immune system.
The larvae must keep the host alive and fresh for as long as possible to ensure fresh meat.
In the example below, involving the Blue butterfly as a host, we see several adaptations. These include locating the host and distinguishing it from ant larvae (bear in mind that the ants can’t even do that) and avoiding being attacked by the ants. This latter applies to both infected pupae and adult wasps.
So, the fundamentalist is left with a problem. How did these specific adaptations arise if animals were intended to be vegetarian? They either have to claim god made them that way (lacking any evidence) or claim that some evolution occurred – although that would have to be incredibly fast for a vegetarian wasp to become a wood drilling, ant avoiding spider paralysing, immune system evading parasite.
Of course, the problems for YECs don’t stop there. They believe in the flood. There were only of two of every non clean kind on the ark. That means no ant colony to feed the blue butterfly larvae for the Ichneumon to eradicate. Mind you, the ants would have been killed by lancet flukes (Dicrocoelium lanceolatum). That’s if Anty the ant eater didn’t get them first.
15 comments:
Your'e not expecting a response on this are you?
I note that the "Trustworthiness of the Bible" thread has gone dead. I await to see whether we get any more posts or the reset button gets pressed again.
Your'e not expecting a response on this are you?
Of course not. Any serious consideration of the topic would undermine the literal authority of the bible.
I think we reached the fingers in the ears stage the minute we went on the attack :-)
Billy,
Comprehensive and splendid.
Also (following the links) I had no idea that all the cleaner wrasses start off being female, and that when the one male of the group dies, the strongest female then changes sex...Fish are interesting things...
Mark_W
Great post Billy...
I think we reached the fingers in the ears stage the minute we went on the attack :-)
Sad but true...
Lee
Hi Mark,
Sex change in fish is fairly common. It is a good strategy to maximise your reproductive output, particularly where territorial space is limited. If you are a male without a territory, you generally dont get much sex. Some fish have another way arounf rhe problem (eg blue gilled sunfishes (Lepomis cyanellus)). Non territory ownong males stay small and nip in when bigger fish are spawning and fertilise a few eggs.
The sex change thing though is causing problems around heavily populated estuaries though. The high levels of contracepive pill components in sewage are keeping fish female - and even femminises other species that dont normally change sex
Billy,
Ahh - I was going to ask why they went about it that way, that makes sense...
Mark_W
I note that the "Trustworthiness of the Bible" thread has gone dead.
"she is ALIVE!!!"
crack of thunder and lightning in the background
Well, there has been a long reply from Chelsea – not read it yet.
Lee
Chelsea wrote:
Billy, I think its possible T-Rex ate veggies like everyone else
...
I’m not familiar with ichneumon. Does the caterpillar die? Yuck. Parasitic relationships are most interesting and beautiful, you’re right. I wouldn’t know how to answer you in regards to this being a vegetarian beginning, but I would say that what this shows me is that these creatures didn’t evolve, but rather were formed, designed and created to have this relationship. Very interesting!
You couldn't make this stuff up could ya?
Lee
PS
Interestingly(?) the word verification for this post is
"ark frqgn" I wonder what "frqgn" means?
Maybe God is trying to tell me something?
You couldn't make this stuff up could ya?
She just did :-)
Here's my response
Hi
Chelsea,
T. rex shows abolutely no signs of adaptation to vegetarianism. It's front teet are perfectly adapted to scoop out flesh. It also has a bite strength greater than that of an Aligators - a bit much for plants dont you think? Then there is all the evidence of predation - bite marks and healed wounds - all in rocks that date before humans.
Many Dinosaurs have growth rings in their bones, and did not achieve massive ages. 70 years was very good for a T.rex. Also, what evidence do you actually have the humans lived that long? Even theologians quibble over the translation there.
What evidence do you actually have that god wrote the bible?
Now, if you claim the Ichneumon was made that way (along with malaria, liverfluke, Ebola, HIV, Small pox etc) then surely he is not loving.
You may want to see my latest post on Ichneumons for mor problems http://basketofpuppies-
billy.blogspot.com/2008/09/wasp-
stings-young-earth-creationism-in.html
Now if you believe some adaptation can occur, why do you doubt evolution?
About the breast cancer - you say it was about to be biopsied - dies that mean that there was no real diagnosis in the first place?
Having taught doctors, I wouldn't actually put much stock in their incredulity either. It is well known that tumours can also spontaneously regress without prayer. It would take an amputee being healed for me to believe it.
I'm sorry to hear about the bad stuff going on, and I hope it all works out well, so I hope you don't think I'm being cruel here.
How does the fact that your faith gives you peace mean god exists? I have Muslim friends who claim the same thing - and you believe they are wrong, so how do you reconcile this?
I dont think being a christian is necssarily an easy option, but then, neither is Islam or buddism. Again, this only demonstrates that people are willing to suffer for their particular world view - they cant all be true. Kamikazee pilots demonstrate the lengths people will go to.
Rune,
My problem with creationism is that it should not be taught as a science - it most certainly is not one! I have no problem with it being taught alongside other myths - as mythology, but then I dont see why we should give it special treatment when subjects like philosophy are not taught in schools.
Cheers
Billy
She just did :-)
exactly – and that stuff about the dinosaurs.
Hi Billy,
Fish approach cleaner wrasse to be serviced and the wrasse signals back. This signifies the intentions of both parties and wrasse are even allowed into the mouths of large predators, where they are unharmed. Sabre tooth blennies on the other hand do a similar display but instead of cleaning the other fish, they take a chunk out of it.
I've always been interested in this particular point. Do the fish not evolve some suspicion that this might be a trap if it happens often enough?
I've always been interested in this particular point. Do the fish not evolve some suspicion that this might be a trap if it happens often enough?
You would expect some evolutionary pressure to be able to differentiate species, but that also works the other way in favour of the blenny. The real key though is that there are far more wrasse than blennies, so as long as the wrasse population is considerably larger it is not a problem. Should blennies rise in number, then more encounters with black and blue fish will result in attacks and the blennies strategy will not be so sucessfull. You may be interested in this article on mimicry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimicry#Batesian
Well, that seems to be that then. I notice they have started a new thread "Prayer requests" with some fairly personal items on it.
No responses to anything I wrote, minimal responses to other people and lots of cut and paste from scripture.
They are still posting replies, but I dont know if they will or they want to respond just now. I think they need their comfort blanket at the mo. Pretty sad situation though. You dont really know what to say as they believe they will see him again and have a different view of death to us
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