I'm suffering from the cold just now and a simple refutation of the YEC position popped into my mind. If the Christian god supposedly created us in a perfect world with no pain or suffering, where Dinosaurs supposedly ate tofu , then why do we experience pain? Without going into the details, our bodies have complex pathways to perceive pain and produce painkillers (like endorphins). So, why can we feel pain and possess mechanisms to modulate it?
Closely associated with this is tissue damage. Why do we have complex repair mechanisms and the blood clotting cascade? Interestingly, Michael Behe claims that the blood clotting cascade is irreducibly complex and could not have evolved. Creationists want it both ways it seems. This idea is of course nonsense and is refuted here.
7 comments:
So, why can we feel pain and possess mechanisms to modulate it?Erm... so we don't leave our hands in the camp fire too long?
There are valid arguments for pain (even from a fundie) the problem is unnecessary pain and suffering.
This cannot be answered with an all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful god.
Take care, and get well
Lee
Yeah, but in the fundies world view, there was no pain in the garden of Eden.
A fundie may argue that god created this after the fall (no evidence though). Interestingly, Gen 3:16 says that god will increase the pain of child birth. That would argue against the fundie position and suggest that in the garden of Eden myth, pain already existed.
The fact that we have some ability to modulate it would also make the point of it as a punishment somewhat self defeating.
The fact that we possess an immune system also throws up similar problems. Why create disease to punish us, only to give us a means of fighting it?
Billy, that is a good point -I hadnt thought of that one before - obvious that there must have been SOME pain, before taking a bite of fruit made it worse....
These literalists have got some limbo dancing to do to make all this stuff fit.
Speaking of which, have you read about the almighty row that is erupting in the C of S over a gay minister?
These nutters here have a good take on it:
http://www.christianstogether.net/Articles/150113/Christians_Together_in/Christian_Life/Fellowship_of_Confessing.aspx
And the web site for this bigot-fest is:
www.confessingchurch.org.uk
And, yes, Davey's name is on it
As Diacanu would say (Hi Diacanu if you are out there... (waves hand))
*popcorn*
:-)
SG
Billy,
Why create disease to punish us, only to give us a means of fighting it?Indeed, it's the old chestnut of god (if he's there) behaving exactly as we'd expect him to if he wasn't (as it were) - which is, of course, the ideal situation for the the various religions man has invented.
Over the past week, following the sad death of J. G. Ballard, I've been re-reading his Complete Short Stories: his 1976 story "The Life and Death of God" begins with the discovery of conclusive evidence for a supreme being, and ends with the 'United Faith Assembly' issuing a Christmas encyclical entitled God is Dead...
SG,
That's scary...
Mark_W
Hi SG,
Funny, I just accidentally came across that article today and saw crazy davey on it. More to throw at him if he ever returns :-)
Mark,
I haven't read that before, but it sounds interesting. It is totally amazing that god behaves like he doesnt exist. It strikes me as tortuous the way christians make up all these excuses as to why he nevers does anything. I often think of theology as a bunch of excuses for god's absence
Billy,
Indeed, I like that definition of theology...
Ballard, was, in my opinion, the world's greatest short story writer, and "The Life and Death of God" is the finest (I think) exposition of the "if god did exist we'd have to un-invent him" position...
Mark_W
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