I came across this interesting article. It shows that chimps can plan forward and that they have the ability to foresee particular mental states. This also implies that they are self aware. This is one of the last areas that the religious have clung on to in a vain attempt to claim that humans are somehow special and outwith the rest of nature.
Tuesday, 10 March 2009
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26 comments:
Part of me finds this funny - the chimp is pissed off and is planning his attack on the public.
"That that ya bastars!!!"
All rather human, but why should anyone be surprised?
Oh yeah, it isn't written in a 2,000 year old book... that is why this will confuse many fundie Christians
Yeah, I find it funny too. Reminds me of one half of the old gits from Harry Enfield - nyaaahh .... bugger! Arse! Next door's boy' s ball was in the garden earlier, so I burst it with me fork and put it on the fire ... soon you'll all be dead - nyaaaaa! etc
I forgot about the old gits...
the 'new' Harry Enfield series was on last night over here - not watched it yet.
Paul whitehouse is back, so it could be good.
Lee
Well, after chatting about this with Dr. ER, who is educated as an animal behaviorist (Ph.D.) ...
We both would like to read the journal article, knowing what we know 1., about journalism, and 2., the human habit of overstating in conversation what one's research may or may not show (as in a scientist flattered to be asked by someone in the popular press to talk about his research).
We both think it's a leap to conclude that the chimp was anticipating an "emotional state" (agitation), because he appeared to be taking action now (collecting the stones) in order to have them in the future (to hurl). It strikes us both as classic anthropomorphism to attach such intention to the action of collecting the stones.
We think that perhaps the situation has trigged some deep, deep instinct. (Squirrels gather nuts for the winter by instinct. Dogs turn in circles to "make their bed" whether or not there is any grass to make into a bed.
I point out that the Christian tradition indicates that God is redeeming all of God's Creation, not just human beans.
Even proving sentience on the part of animals says nothing about whether they have the capacity to accept, or reject, God's love. Some sentient people apparently do not have the capacity to accept, or reject, God's love.
On a lighter note: Until now, I had never seen or heard the word "outwith." I had to look it up to make sure it wasn't a typo! :-)
Besides that, all dogs go to heaven. Other animals, too, unless God is a specieist, which I doubt! :-)
Hi ER,
Your points about anthropomorphism is very valid. It is something that has always bugged me about some animal behaviour studies. I think the important thing is that the chimp didn't bother so much in the "low season". Taken with other studies (mainly on capuchins) evidence is acumulating about animals abilities to plan forward. Send me your email and I'll forward the journal pdf to you (its not very big to be honest).
Seen this:
http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/02/27/8560781.html
Flu vaccine contaminated with bird flu
?
scary
Billy
Wasnt there an article recently about a chimp that threw stones at people:
"Stone-throwing chimpanzee displays human-like planning abilities"
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-sci-chimp14-2009mar14,0,5971964.story
Really funny story. Almost as funny as that story I heard a long time ago about a pub that had a pet monkey. Except thaey had to get rid of it. It just sat there wanking.....
:-)))))))))))))))))))))
SG
SG,
I dont know why I got an image in my head of that monkey dressed as a wee free minister.
I also remember seeing a monkey throwing its shit at people - I searched for it on you tube and found a video of a monkey giving another one a blow job
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=GBaoxnZH1Ug&NR=1
Bloody Animal!!!
Shoot him now or it's Planet of the Apes for us.
In spite of the potential anthropomorphism (already mentioned - damn), I still think it's fascinating. Since I don't know the first thing about behavioral psychology as it relates to animals (is there such a thing?), I'm wondering how one characterizes the behavior here?
Should read the study...
Re, "behavioral psychology as it relates to animals (is there such a thing?) ..."
Yeah. That's what the study is all about, animal behavior, which is a topic for psychologiy. My wife's Ph.D. in psychology had to do with that very topic, specifically the effects of a certain kind of chemical on the socialization of a certain kind of beneficial insect.
Hi JC,
I'll email you the study.
ER, what did you make of it?
and found a video of a monkey giving another one a blow job
Tut, tut.
I hope s/he flossed afterwards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAFHqyVVqlc
Thanks Billy!
Been too long sicne I read it, Billy. My mind is like a sieve. Seems like the notes indicated it a snapshot of a longterm study and the the article was written on early conclusions -- a nuance that flies over the head of most people doing popular reporting of science, even, often, in specialized publications.
ER,
I think the imoprtant thing was that the chimp did not make ammo stores in the off season. It had some concept of when it was going to need the rocks.
Hazel,
Do you know if they were taught to floss or whether they just started doing it and it spread?
Oh, that's right. I think we wondered if the situation the chimp was in triggered some deep-set instinct rather than was a result of his planning in response to an anticipated eventuality. Squirrels don't gather nuts whn they don't need to ather nuts. ... Or do they? Not sure! .. Seems lime the researcher also attributed the chimp's gathering of stones as being in anticipation of anger, or some other emotion, which we thought was a stretch, rather than simply gathering them to throw at a perceived threat, an act that would be instinctual.
I think the emotional thing is plausible, but harder to conclusively demonstrate. I'm more certain that the chimp knew when it would need the stones though.
I've seen well fed squirrels hide food in May before. On one occasion, one had a crow hopping about behind it. Eventually it chose a spot to bury its stash and ran off. Immediately after this the crow dug it up and ate it. Felt sorry for the poor squirrel but also impressed by the crow.
Hard to demonstrate, yes. My poor 14-year-old corgi, whose hind legs have quit him, shows embarrassment when he can't go off to poop like he used to, and seems scared when he's in acute pain. It haunts me.
Cows, on the other hand, which my family raised when I was growing up, and which we killed and ate regularly, seem to be total brutes.
Even cows get conditioned to come when they hear the feed truck drive up, though. And they bawl like hell if it misses a day -- but is that because they're hungry, or because they're mad, or because their feelings are hurt ... who knows?
I used to have a Corgi too. I remember it had the squirts once. It was in the garden on a cold snowy day and this steaming chocolate rainbow arched out her bum - she definately looked embarrased, but I'm sure I'm just being anthropomorphic there.
There is certainly evidence of feelings of jealousy/injustice in capuchins though. Some monkeys protest when they see another monke getting a better reward for a task.
Thanks for the mental image, Billy! LOL
It was one of the funniest things I have ever seen :-) Poor dog
Do you know if they were taught to floss or whether they just started doing it and it spread? Sorry no, it wasn't made clear - astonishing either way.
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