I found myself watching the one show tonight because it featured Robert Winston talking about religion. The award goes to Adrian Chiles for his comment on the atheist bus campaign, which advertises on buses that "There's probably no god. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life". Chiles claimed that this was a carte blanche to behave in an amoral way. This says more about his mindset than anything. Atheists are no less moral than christians - in fact, atheists are often under represented in prisons. For example, these stats show that atheists form about 8-16% (and growing) of the American population, but only form 0.209% of the prison population. Does this goof ball really think that without god, we will go a rapin' and a pillagin', and a committing genocide - you know like the stuff god condones in the OT. Maybe we will enslave others - hmmm, cant do that either, that's endorsed by the bible too. Oh well, that leaves racism ...... damn! the bible endorses that too. Just what can I do that is immoral that the bible doesn't endorse?
I would argue that you can't be truly moral with god, as the need to think through the consequences of your actions are deferred to some other authority ( a human one, but the god bots think it is their chosen sub - sub species of the Abrahamic deity) .
I like Darwin's definition of a moral being: "A moral being is one who is capable of reflecting on his past actions and their motives - of approving of some and disapproving of others. "
If you can bear it, there is a thread to the episode that takes comments here.
Adrian, society will not fall apart because people don't believe in god - twat!
PS, I liked this comment (no 48) :
"Science will fly you to the moon, faith will fly you into a building!"
I would argue that you can't be truly moral with god, as the need to think through the consequences of your actions are deferred to some other authority ( a human one, but the god bots think it is their chosen sub - sub species of the Abrahamic deity) .
I like Darwin's definition of a moral being: "A moral being is one who is capable of reflecting on his past actions and their motives - of approving of some and disapproving of others. "
If you can bear it, there is a thread to the episode that takes comments here.
Adrian, society will not fall apart because people don't believe in god - twat!
PS, I liked this comment (no 48) :
"Science will fly you to the moon, faith will fly you into a building!"
7 comments:
Dropping by at last Billy. Personally I don't think a relationship with God removes the struggle to live morally and think through how to do so at all.
Bruce, if you assume because some book says that homosexuals are moral degenerates, that they are, then you are not thinking through things.
You have a set of rules. I can question whether they are good or not. That is a big difference
Bruce
Long time no see, hope all is well!
If you don't think a relationship with God removes the struggle to live morally - why have a relationship with God at all?
Billy's quote from Darwin is exactly right - you can be a moral being just by studying your actions and of those around you.
Unlike Billy in his Christian past or yourself it has never occurred to me to even seek moral guidance from God - if I am up to no good and need telling off I have good friends and family who can pass judgement on my actions and I can logically discuss it with them.
Injecting God into the situation is pointless because he lacks the one thing that my family and friends have in abundance - I cannot have a conversation with God and know his approval or disapproval of my actions.
Knowing what your God wants, thinks, approves of etc is a complicated task - where is God? How can I call him, email him, drive over to go and see him? I can't, its futile.
According to this Chiles chap I have carte - blanche to run amok because I do not have the guidance of an invisible being?
So what has stopped me I wonder?
I agree with that bus statement - I am not worried about God or others in the slightest and I do enjoy my life (Except when I get massive colds like I have now!) - I am completely godless - what is stopping me?
Its not religion.
If you are following some kind of "Divine Command" theory of ethics then one could argue that your only concern is with your god.
You deal with your fellow humans in an effort to please and placate your deity, rather than attempt to engage with them in their own right.
Billy,
Good grief, Adrian Chiles and Robert Winston...
It’s at times like these I’m supremely grateful I don’t have TV reception and so usually miss these things: I can think of few things more likely to make me vomit. (To be fair, my dislike of Chiles (though his comment about the “atheist buses” is undeniably fatuous and stupid) is entirely irrational: whenever I’ve seen him on sports programmes, he’s just seemed to me to be more concerned with bloke-ish soundbites rather than saying anything useful, which is just my personal reaction to his manner, obviously. Robert Winston, on the other hand, I’ve never really been able to tolerate since I saw, many years ago, a TV programme of his where he did an “experiment” with children regarding the effects of television. The children were shown, in the experiment room, footage of clowns hitting each other or something similar (I admit here that my memory is dulled with time and the horror: apologies to Winston if I’ve misremembered the details etc.) and then taken to another room with toys dressed entirely as the clowns has been. The children, entirely as you’d expect, thought they were playing a game similar to that they’d just watched, and hit the clowns with the (again, as far as I can remember) identical toys provided. “So,” said Winston in the voiceover (more or less), “It seems TV violence can have some effect on children.” Collapse of Welsh party. I don’t think I’ve ever come across a more badly designed or loaded experiment; it’s the sort of thing that would have incurred the wrath of my statistics lecturers when I was an undergraduate *cough cough* years ago, and yet this guy is a professor!)
Anyway.
The comment that stuck out for me on the thread you linked to was number 31:
I am a quiet Christian, as every time I mention this fact I believe I seem to be asked to justify it. To answer peoples' comments on why they don't believe and therefore I should have all of the answers. I enjoy my beliefs and don't exactly feel embarassed about the fact that I believe, but I am embarassed by the fact that others need me to justify myself.
(Let’s leave aside, as I’m as guilty of spelling errors as anyone (if not more so, and have doubtless committed many in this post) that this person can’t spell “embarrassed.”)
Anyway, atheists are accused of being “amoral” and yet this person is upset because they get asked to justify their beliefs. Good grief, that’s the whole point. We all have to justify our beliefs; no-one has carte blanche; no-one (not even quiet Christians!) has the right to do what they want and expect exemption from having to justify their beliefs, or actions, or behaviour.
I know you obviously can’t take a single post on a forum as representative of a religious group in general, but it my experience it is non-believers who are more willing to examine and question their beliefs, precisely because they don’t have an imaginary authority to pass the buck to...
Gosh, I seem to be (at least by my own placid standards) a seething ball of fury tonight! Must be K. Pieterson throwing his wicket away trying to bring up his ton in Corinthian style earlier. :-) Before I go off to calm down, the woman who wrote comment 61 said:
Richard Dawkins is indeed arrogant in thinking that he has alll the answers: he seesm to have no time for those who do not agree with him.
Good grief, it takes literally minutes of reading more or less anything Dawkins has ever written to realise this is nonsense...
Hey ho! Rant over, you may all go now...
:-)
Mark_W
You deal with your fellow humans in an effort to please and placate your deity, rather than attempt to engage with them in their own right.
That is quite disturbing, isn't it! The idea that you put your invisible frirnd before real people. The idea that you are more concerned with hurting him(the earth flooding bully) than a real person.
Anyway, atheists are accused of being “amoral” and yet this person is upset because they get asked to justify their beliefs.
Why don't christians read the bible? (to be honest though, perhaps we should be grateful)
"Sanctify the Lord Christ in your hearts, being ready always to satisfy everyone that asks you a reason of that hope which is in you." (1 Peter 3:15)
Hey ho! Rant over, you may all go now...
We want more! :-)
Billy,
We want more! :-)
Ha! I think I'll generally stick to leaving the rants to you and Philip and Diacanu and others: you're much better at it than I am! :-)
Mind you, I did get a little bit upset with sf author Orson Scott Card tonight...
Mark_W
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